| [19:28:55] | <jgaehring[m]> | Anyone else been following the news on ElasticSearch changing their license? |
| [19:28:56] | <jgaehring[m]> | https://twitter.com/ehashdn/status/1352698287535525888?s=19 |
| [19:30:34] | <jgaehring[m]> | I'm only vaguely familiar with the details, but wondered if anyone in our community had opinions |
| [19:33:59] | <jgaehring[m]> | It's also raised in me a curiosity about Contributor License Agreements, and whether we're doing our due diligence to ensure that this kind of thing couldn't adversely effect contributors or users in the future |
| [19:35:03] | <jgaehring[m]> | More context: |
| [19:35:03] | <jgaehring[m]> | https://www.elastic.co/blog/why-license-change-AWS |
| [20:59:09] | <paul121[m]> | My face while reading that article: |
| [20:59:09] | <paul121[m]> | :-( to :--( to :---------((((((((((((((( |
| [21:03:33] | <paul121[m]> | oh but shoot, I didn't read that twitter thread. Now I don't know what to think |
| [21:05:29] | <symbioquine[m]> | Seems like GPL is a much clearer statement than the license they're starting with. IANAL but it feels pretty unlikely someone could argue the farmOS license could be retroactively made less permissive without pursuing agreements from all the contributors or rewriting stuff. |
| [21:05:44] | <jgaehring[m]> | Haha, yea, I'm not sure what to think either |
| [21:07:14] | <jgaehring[m]> | That's my intuition too, symbioquine , but I wonder if there's more we could do |
| [21:07:24] | <symbioquine[m]> | It's a good question for sure :) |
| [21:17:18] | <symbioquine[m]> | It'd be nice to have a meta-license that defines the state machine for what license changes are possible in the future so it was clear whether a project is worth investing in as a open source contributor. |
| [21:19:43] | <paul121[m]> | oh just saw this from AWS twitter: |
| [21:19:44] | <paul121[m]> | > We are committed to open source. To help keep Elasticsearch and Kibana open for everyone, we are announcing that we will launch new forks of both Elasticsearch and Kibana based on the latest Apache 2.0 licensed codebases. |
| [21:19:44] | <paul121[m]> | https://twitter.com/awscloud/status/1352377584361877509?s=20 |
| [21:20:15] | <paul121[m]> | so now AWS maintains the apache version of the proj? yiikeess |
| [21:20:58] | <mstenta[m]> | phew that's a twist! |
| [21:21:21] | <symbioquine[m]> | It's in their interest for it to be a thriving public project, so it's probably good for everybody except Elastic - who shot themselves in the foot. |
| [21:22:31] | <mstenta[m]> | i've been following - definitely mixed feelings - sucks that AWS didn't engage/contribute - but sucks more for elastic to change the license to non-FOSS even more IMO |
| [21:22:46] | <symbioquine[m]> | An open core model is a commitment to forever compete by innovating to make their add-ons the best/most-alluring - if they weren't willing to do that they shouldn't have gone with an open core model. |
| [21:23:08] | <mstenta[m]> | but now hearing that AWS is going to make an OSS fork? that just feels like a power play |
| [21:23:32] | <mstenta[m]> | FWIW farmOS would need to completely rewrite to change from GPL - we are technically a derivative work of Drupal |
| [21:25:12] | <symbioquine[m]> | <mstenta[m] "FWIW farmOS would need to comple"> Oh, I hadn't even thought that far into it - I was just thinking; "Well it's a **lot** of relatively simple configuration all expertly combined so in theory specific contributors contributions should be able to be rewritten in a black box." |
| [21:26:11] | <symbioquine[m]> | But I suppose it's more closely "integrated" than the "linked against" boundary that GPL defines...? |
| [21:26:21] | <mstenta[m]> | yea a similar question came up in the wordpress community, a while back, with regard to "paid plugins" or something to that effect (i need to refresh) |
| [21:26:33] | <symbioquine[m]> | How do proprietary modules handle that? I assume there are some...? |
| [21:26:49] | <symbioquine[m]> | (for Drupal, not farmOS that is) |
| [21:27:00] | <mstenta[m]> | no - i don't think you can have closed source modules |
| [21:27:11] | <mstenta[m]> | you can't "distribute" them anyway (sell them, in other words) |
| [21:27:17] | <symbioquine[m]> | cool |
| [21:27:42] | <mstenta[m]> | you can make custom modules that you don't distribute, of course |
| [21:28:19] | <symbioquine[m]> | Pragmatically, I tend to support usage of the more permissive licenses like MIT for certain kinds of things also, but that's pretty cool to know about the Drupal ecosystem... |
| [21:28:58] | <mstenta[m]> | mm yea I think MIT is beneficial in lower level libs, among other cases |
| [21:29:23] | <symbioquine[m]> | Something like ZLib clearly should be very permissively licensed to promote as-wide-as-possible compatibility in compression tooling. |
| [21:29:26] | <mstenta[m]> | eg: farmOS.js and farmOS.py |
| [21:29:32] | <symbioquine[m]> | yeah |
| [21:30:04] | <mstenta[m]> | (although they are currently GPL haha - but we talked about changing that) |
| [21:31:18] | <symbioquine[m]> | Haha, in my head https://github.com/farmOS/farmOS-map/issues/90 meant it had already happened... |
| [21:31:40] | <mstenta[m]> | the thought being: it's OK, and actually good, for those two be usable in proprietary systems |
| [21:31:58] | <mstenta[m]> | hahaha yea... i mean it basically did happen... in all but the actual commit lol |
| [21:32:14] | <mstenta[m]> | PR anyone? :-P |
| [21:32:18] | <mstenta[m]> | (i forgot about it lol) |
| [21:32:32] | <mstenta[m]> | * the thought being: it's OK, and actually good, for those to be usable in proprietary systems |
| [21:37:09] | <symbioquine[m]> | <mstenta[m] "PR anyone? :-P"> On the way... |
| [21:37:22] | <mstenta[m]> | Haha yay! :-D |
| [21:43:03] | <symbioquine[m]> | https://github.com/farmOS/farmOS-map/pull/96 |
| [21:43:17] | <mstenta[m]> | i'm interested in the trademark dispute specifically |
| [21:43:20] | <mstenta[m]> | https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16262308/elasticsearch-inc-v-amazon... |
| [21:43:33] | <symbioquine[m]> | Yeah, that part is trickier :) |
| [21:43:41] | <mstenta[m]> | curious to see how that unfolds |
| [21:44:40] | <mstenta[m]> | reminds me of Koha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koha_(software)#Dispute_with_LibLime_/_PTFS |
| [21:44:53] | <mstenta[m]> | but much bigger |
| [21:45:13] | <mstenta[m]> | woo thanks for the PR symbioquine !! |
| [21:45:15] | <symbioquine[m]> | <mstenta[m] "curious to see how that unfolds"> Yeah, the "brand" is a moderate but non-negligible part of the value of the product. Kind of a pain to rebrand it, but probably necessary... |
| [21:45:34] | <mstenta[m]> | yea - and who will rebrand? will AWS? |
| [21:45:40] | <mstenta[m]> | i suppose that's the most likely |
| [21:45:47] | <mstenta[m]> | if they are forced to in court anyway |
| [21:46:07] | <mstenta[m]> | but if the court decides it's not a strong enough trademark... that could make things really spicy |
| [21:46:12] | <symbioquine[m]> | I would assume so - I'd guess they'll probably settle with Elastic Co. and rebrand as part of that. |
| [21:46:26] | <mstenta[m]> | (IANAL and have not reviewed any of the history/bg) |
| [21:46:45] | <mstenta[m]> | i just know trademarks are.... subjective |
| [21:47:40] | <symbioquine[m]> | IANAL but it flies in the face of my understanding of trademark that they'd be able to release a "really Open source ElasticSearch" unless a court finds that Elastic Co. hadn't been defending their trademark despite multiple challenges. |
| [21:48:14] | <symbioquine[m]> | * "they'd [AWS would] be able" |
| [21:48:32] | <mstenta[m]> | yea |
| [21:51:13] | <mstenta[m]> | i fear this could be one of those deciding cases, where the court decides that allowing AWS to use the name in the SaaS offering equates to lack of defense by Elastic |
| [21:53:18] | <mstenta[m]> | that would be a pretty thin case to make IMO, but thinner cases have been argued... (shrug emoji) |
| [21:58:20] | <symbioquine[m]> | Trademark is tricky. :( E.g. with things like https://github.com/symbioquine/farmOS_wfs I don't have any intention of weakening the trademark - but I'm not sure I understand the implications of https://farmos.org/community/trademark/ well enough to tell if it would. I think it falls under the "Statements about compatibility, interoperability or derivation", but the name wouldn't be very succinct if it had to be |
| [21:58:20] | <symbioquine[m]> | "wfs_module_for_farmOS" and it isn't very specific about compatibility if it's just "farm_wfs" - like many other modules are named... |
| [22:01:09] | <paul121[m]> | interesting, just read something that was arguing a piece of code could be used in different systems, eg: I could make another entire PHP web stack that interfaces with `farm_wfs` and that would be OK |
| [22:02:53] | <mstenta[m]> | mm yea symbioquine that's a good point and maybe an addendum we should add to our copy of the "model trademark guidelines" (which itself is copied from here: http://modeltrademarkguidelines.org/index.php/Home:_Model_Trademark_Guid...) |
| [04:04:35] | * paul121[m] has quit (*.net *.split) |
| [04:04:35] | * spitz234[m] has quit (*.net *.split) |
| [04:04:36] | * JulianF has quit (*.net *.split) |
| [04:06:38] | * paul121[m] has joined #farmos |
| [04:06:38] | * spitz234[m] has joined #farmos |
| [04:06:38] | * JulianF has joined #farmos |
| [04:09:56] | * abugida[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| [04:09:56] | * wombat83[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| [04:09:56] | * symbioquine[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| [04:09:56] | * leogaggl[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| [04:09:56] | * munjoma[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| [04:09:56] | * jonzet[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| [04:09:56] | * jgaehring[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| [04:09:56] | * generalredneck[m has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| [04:10:08] | * sydney_zimbotech has quit (Ping timeout: 243 seconds) |
| [04:10:12] | * zedrckr[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| [04:10:12] | * braught[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| [04:10:13] | * dazinism has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| [04:10:15] | * jolau[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| [04:10:15] | * spiffyman[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| [04:10:21] | * paul121[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| [04:10:22] | * spitz234[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| [04:10:28] | * calbasi_matrix has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| [04:10:40] | * farmtech[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| [04:10:51] | * mstenta[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| [04:10:51] | * jcalonso[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| [04:10:51] | * kunigunde[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| [04:13:02] | * JulianF has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| [04:13:33] | * lauriexwayne[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| [04:34:27] | * symbioquine[m] has joined #farmos |
| [04:34:27] | * abugida[m] has joined #farmos |
| [04:34:27] | * wombat83[m] has joined #farmos |
| [04:34:27] | * leogaggl[m] has joined #farmos |
| [04:36:46] | * farmtech[m] has joined #farmos |
| [04:36:46] | * zedrckr[m] has joined #farmos |
| [04:36:50] | * braught[m] has joined #farmos |
| [04:37:41] | * spitz234[m] has joined #farmos |
| [04:38:04] | * paul121[m] has joined #farmos |
| [04:39:21] | * calbasi_matrix has joined #farmos |
| [04:41:44] | * spiffyman[m] has joined #farmos |
| [04:46:45] | * kunigunde[m] has joined #farmos |
| [04:47:01] | * dorisgetzeroates has joined #farmos |
| [04:49:32] | * dazinism has joined #farmos |
| [04:55:24] | * spiffyman[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| [04:55:24] | * braught[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| [04:55:26] | * farmtech[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| [04:55:35] | * kunigunde[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| [04:55:35] | * zedrckr[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| [04:55:53] | * paul121[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| [04:55:53] | * spitz234[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| [04:55:56] | * wombat83[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| [04:56:06] | * symbioquine[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| [04:56:06] | * abugida[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| [04:56:21] | * leogaggl[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| [04:56:22] | * dazinism has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| [04:56:29] | * calbasi_matrix has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| [04:56:29] | * dorisgetzeroates has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| [05:21:34] | * dazinism has joined #farmos |
| [05:22:00] | * calbasi_matrix has joined #farmos |
| [05:53:42] | * farmtech[m] has joined #farmos |
| [06:08:10] | * dorisgetzeroates has joined #farmos |
| [06:08:10] | * JulianF has joined #farmos |
| [06:08:10] | * kunigunde[m] has joined #farmos |
| [06:08:11] | * spiffyman[m] has joined #farmos |
| [06:08:11] | * spitz234[m] has joined #farmos |
| [06:08:16] | * jonzet[m] has joined #farmos |
| [06:08:16] | * leogaggl[m] has joined #farmos |
| [06:08:16] | * jgaehring[m] has joined #farmos |
| [06:08:16] | * jcalonso[m] has joined #farmos |
| [06:08:16] | * generalredneck[m has joined #farmos |
| [06:08:16] | * munjoma[m] has joined #farmos |
| [06:08:16] | * paul121[m] has joined #farmos |
| [06:08:16] | * lauriexwayne[m] has joined #farmos |
| [06:08:17] | * jolau[m] has joined #farmos |
| [06:08:17] | * braught[m] has joined #farmos |
| [06:08:17] | * wombat83[m] has joined #farmos |
| [06:08:17] | * abugida[m] has joined #farmos |
| [06:08:17] | * sydney_zimbotech has joined #farmos |
| [06:08:18] | * symbioquine[m] has joined #farmos |
| [06:08:18] | * mstenta[m] has joined #farmos |
| [06:08:19] | * zedrckr[m] has joined #farmos |