IRC logs for #farmOS, 2016-10-05 (GMT)

2016-10-04
2016-10-06
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[00:40:41]<Kadaan_>Does farmOS have any support for forward looking crop planning, or do you still end up doing that in Excel?
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[02:43:15]<kadaan>@mstenta: Is there documentation anywhere to aid a Drupal newb in setting up a local instance of farmOS so that they can easily contribute bug fixes?
[02:43:37]<kadaan>Or a vagrantfile?
[02:44:29]<kadaan>And some instructions on which project to git clone, what the directory structure needs to be, etc.
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[07:47:08]<mstenta>farmBOT: tell kadaan Hi! I wasn't around when you asked your question earlier. Send me a message via http://farmier.com/contact and we can find a time to meet up in IRC. Or feel free to post specific questions/issues to Github/drupal.org
[07:47:08]<farmBOT>mstenta: I'll pass that on when kadaan is around.
[07:56:49]<mstenta>farmBOT: tell kadaan We are currently working on setting up a Docker image that can be used for local development purposes. Here is the Github issue if you want to follow along: https://github.com/farmOS/farmOS/issues/15
[07:56:49]<farmBOT>mstenta: I'll pass that on when kadaan is around.
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[09:18:45]<mstenta>Hi tonym_
[09:18:56]<mstenta>I left you a message via farmBOT
[09:41:17]<svenn>mstenta: what kind of script is farmbot? looks cool.
[10:14:41]<mstenta>svenn: http://drupal.org/project/bot
[10:15:15]<mstenta>svenn: it's the same bot that is used in the official drupal IRC channels (ie: #drupal)
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[15:34:27]<mstenta>farmBOT: log pointer?
[15:34:27]<farmBOT>http://farmier.com/bot/log/farmOS/2016-10-05#T11322
[15:56:04]<kadaan>Might have missed a response, but...
[15:56:04]<farmBOT>kadaan: 8 hours 8 min ago <mstenta> tell kadaan Hi! I wasn't around when you asked your question earlier. Send me a message via http://farmier.com/contact and we can find a time to meet up in IRC. Or feel free to post specific questions/issues to Github/drupal.org
[15:56:04]<farmBOT>kadaan: 7 hours 59 min ago <mstenta> tell kadaan We are currently working on setting up a Docker image that can be used for local development purposes. Here is the Github issue if you want to follow along: https://github.com/farmOS/farmOS/issues/15
[15:56:05]<kadaan>mstenta: Is there documentation anywhere to aid a Drupal newb in setting up a local instance of farmOS so that they can easily contribute bug fixes?
[15:56:19]<mstenta>Hi kadaan :-)
[15:56:24]<kadaan>Thanks!
[15:56:59]<mstenta>There isn't any documentation specifically for setting up a local development environment yet, but there is some general documentation about installation on farmos.org
[15:57:17]<mstenta>http://farmos.org/hosting/installing/
[15:57:35]<mstenta>It does assume some knowledge of Drupal, though.
[15:57:49]<mstenta>But there are links to general Drupal documentation as well.
[15:58:15]<mstenta>Pretty soon we should have a docker image available for local testing purposes, which will make it a bit easier to get up and running quickly.
[15:58:18]<kadaan>I think that is my main stumbling block.
[15:58:25]<kadaan>The drupal knowledge.
[15:58:49]<mstenta>kadaan: that's ok - even if you don't help with development, you can always help with bug reports and testing
[15:59:05]<kadaan>I'd like to help with dev, if possible.
[15:59:15]<kadaan>Given that it is my line of work :)
[15:59:21]<mstenta>kadaan: great! it's definitely going to require learning some Drupal
[15:59:25]<kadaan>And we are just starting farm planning.
[15:59:29]<mstenta>awesome
[16:00:29]<kadaan>The main issue is it really isn't clear how to setup a local environment that I can "hack" around the module on to start addressing issues.
[16:00:53]<mstenta>kadaan: are you familiar with setting up a website on apache?
[16:01:03]<kadaan>Yeah.
[16:03:02]<kadaan>Anyway, I can spend a bit more time on trying to get Drupal running locally, installing the modules, and running farmOS.
[16:03:20]<kadaan>On a different note, have you thought or planned for a crop planning module?
[16:04:12]<kadaan>And have you looked at handling profit management with a variant of http://www.veggiecompass.com in farmOS?
[16:05:11]<mstenta>kadaan: cool - so a bit of an overview...
[16:05:16]<mstenta>farmOS is a "distribution" of drupal
[16:05:20]<mstenta>kind of like a linux distro
[16:05:43]<kadaan>Based on drupal core 7.x, right
[16:05:43]<mstenta>it is drupal core packaged with a set of pre-configured modules
[16:05:48]<mstenta>yup
[16:05:50]<kadaan>:)
[16:06:00]<mstenta>so you can just download the whole distro from http://drupal.org/project/farm
[16:06:07]<kadaan>Then core modules, thrid party modules, and farmos modules.
[16:06:08]<mstenta>and that comes with drupal core and all the farmOS modules
[16:06:13]<mstenta>yup, you go it :-)
[16:06:52]<mstenta>have you ever worked with Docker before?
[16:07:16]<mstenta>if so, we actually do have a Docker image available already: https://hub.docker.com/r/farmos/farmos/
[16:07:33]<mstenta>it actually works to get a farmOS running locally... the only thing it doesn't have yet is persistence
[16:07:42]<kadaan>I have some. Didn't know that the docker image was published.
[16:07:43]<mstenta>so if you destroy the docker container, you lose all the stuff
[16:07:52]<kadaan>That is fine for hacking.
[16:08:10]<mstenta>we're working on it in this issue: https://github.com/farmOS/farmOS/issues/15
[16:08:23]<kadaan>Are you doing PR the github way or the convoluted drupal way with git patches?
[16:08:26]<mstenta>i have a pretty clear plan for it... just need to do it :-)
[16:08:39]<mstenta>pull requests are absolutely welcome!
[16:08:57]<mstenta>i do all the project management in drupal.org, because the issue queue is better suited
[16:09:05]<mstenta>but the Github mirrors are great for pull requests
[16:09:10]<mstenta>so whatever you prefer
[16:09:30]<mstenta>re: crop planning... yes! that's a big feature i'm eager to work on
[16:09:44]<mstenta>farmOS can already keep track of plantings and their associated activities
[16:10:00]<mstenta>but the "crop planning" piece will add a "wizard"-like layer on top of that to make it easier to generate future plans
[16:10:01]<kadaan>Have you read: http://www.growingformarket.com/store/products/115
[16:10:03]<mstenta>and to visualize it
[16:10:51]<kadaan>I'm liking the "work back" approach to determining a crop plan.
[16:11:41]<mstenta>kadaan: no i haven't but that's been recommended to me by a few people! :-)
[16:11:51]<kadaan>It is really good.
[16:11:56]<mstenta>i'll order it now...
[16:11:59]<kadaan>The basics are...
[16:15:28]<kadaan>1. Decide a financial target
[16:15:28]<kadaan>2. Break that out across your season, determining how much of you need to sell each week, market, etc.
[16:15:29]<kadaan>3. Allocate specific crops to meet sales targets
[16:15:29]<kadaan>4. Determine harvest schedule for having product to sell
[16:15:31]<kadaan>5. Figure out planting schedule
[16:15:31]<kadaan>6. Produce seed order
[16:16:09]<kadaan>Obviously, there is a lot of iteration based on the crop rotation plan, space constraints, etc.
[16:16:30]<kadaan>And there is "padding" built in to account for loss.
[16:16:42]<mstenta>yea that's great
[16:16:49]<kadaan>Generally padding in both harvest and seed order.
[16:17:09]<kadaan>Have you played around with the GPLv2 CropPlanning app on Github?
[16:17:32]<mstenta>in developing farmOS, we will probably end up taking a "work back" plan on that "work back" plan :-)
[16:17:45]<mstenta>ie: we will need to make the features in sort of the opposite order of the plan
[16:18:20]<mstenta>right now we have the basic foundations for making a planting schedule, but it needs to be easier to use
[16:19:24]<mstenta>i think the "work back" strategy is a good way to approach crop planning
[16:21:25]<kadaan>Things that would help fill the gaps would be the ability to "import" a planting schedule.
[16:21:49]<kadaan>That way you could do the "planning" outside farmOS and then import the plan.
[16:22:08]<mstenta>yea agreed
[16:22:25]<kadaan>Can you include a "seeding schedule", "harvest schedule", and "transplanting schedule" in farmOS?
[16:22:39]<mstenta>yes - there are log types for all three of those
[16:22:48]<kadaan>Great!
[16:22:55]<kadaan>So it we could "import" all of those...
[16:23:02]<kadaan>I did see an issue for import.
[16:23:23]<kadaan>I think "
[16:23:49]<kadaan>I think "export" would be really useful too. That way I could pull data into Excel and pivot insights.
[16:24:45]<mstenta>yea, both import and export of entities is on the list
[16:24:53]<kadaan>As one of the other things that feels "missing" is the ability to "extract" insights from all of the stored data.
[16:24:53]<mstenta>neither are particularly hard to implement...
[16:25:10]<mstenta>the only thing that has been stopping me from adding them is the fact that i am looking toward upgrading to Drupal 8 asap
[16:25:40]<mstenta>and it may be different modules in D8 than D7 for importing/exporting ...
[16:25:44]<kadaan>That seems like it would be nice, but from what I saw on your page you are potentially blocked by other modules.
[16:25:46]<kadaan>Right?
[16:25:54]<mstenta>i may still decide to implement it in D7 anyways...
[16:26:26]<mstenta>yes, but not too bad... i've kept farmOS relatively simple in terms of it's dependencies
[16:26:31]<mstenta>the biggest hurdle is the Openlayers module
[16:26:52]<mstenta>I was recently made a co-maintainer of that module - so I may be the one responsible for porting it to D8
[16:26:55]<mstenta>it's a big module too...
[16:27:09]<mstenta>but I can also get a lot of the other farmOS stuff working in D8 before that
[16:28:40]<mstenta>you should join the farmOS monthly call sometime!
[16:28:53]<mstenta>always good discussions :-)
[16:29:12]<mstenta>http://farmos.org/community/monthly-call/
[16:29:32]<mstenta>although... it may end up getting postponed/canceled this month... my wife is due to have a baby ANY DAY now... :-)
[16:30:48]<kadaan>Nice!!! Congrats!
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[16:32:20]<mstenta>thanks! :-)
[16:32:36]<mstenta>it does mean that farmOS development will probably slow down for a bit as I adjust to fatherhood :-)
[16:32:39]<kadaan>I'll try to come to that call
[16:32:57]<mstenta>all the more reason to get more people involved ;-)
[16:33:04]<kadaan>I like that young age. Mine are teens now.
[16:33:18]<mstenta>oh cool
[16:33:21]<mstenta>any advice?
[16:33:32]<mstenta>this will be my first
[16:33:37]<kadaan>Hehehe
[16:33:40]<kadaan>Remain calm.
[16:33:43]<kadaan>Be patient.
[16:34:11]<kadaan>And the best I heard recently from a person at school is to "be present".
[16:34:22]<kadaan>Not just physically, but mentaly.
[16:34:56]<kadaan>The beginning will be great. Less sleep, but not that big of a deal.
[16:34:57]<mstenta>mmm good advice
[16:35:13]<kadaan>The next hurdle is when they start walking and getting into everything.
[16:35:18]<mstenta>haha
[16:35:37]<kadaan>Have you seen VeggieCompass?
[16:36:07]<mstenta>no i haven't seen that one
[16:36:54]<kadaan>It is a beefy excel spreadsheel from University of Wisconson.
[16:37:06]<kadaan>That is all about profit tracking.
[16:37:31]<kadaan>With the goal of being able to determine which products, markets, etc. are the most profitable.
[16:38:01]<mstenta>awesome
[16:38:29]<mstenta>so yea - i'm aiming to get to a similar place eventually with farmOS
[16:38:37]<mstenta>but i'm taking a bit of a different approach as a starting point
[16:38:43]<mstenta>it is all based around assets and events
[16:39:03]<mstenta>essentially creating a model of the farm within the database
[16:39:43]<mstenta>the initial goal is to make it easy to record everything that happens, and refer back to it later
[16:39:54]<mstenta>but on the same token, you can create events in the future... thus "planning"
[16:40:14]<mstenta>and on top of that we will build tools to make the planning process easier
[16:40:43]<kadaan>Nice
[16:41:05]<kadaan>Seems like you already cover "Step 1" from VeggieCompass: Expense Input, right?
[16:41:42]<mstenta>there is an "input" log type, for recording inputs to assets
[16:41:50]<kadaan>IT is basically just a tracking of expenses.
[16:42:02]<kadaan>Like "spent 500 on tractor maintenance"
[16:42:06]<mstenta>farmOS does not track costs or purchases yet
[16:42:27]<kadaan>Ahhhh
[16:42:28]<mstenta>but I am also working on another set of bookkeeping modules for drupal, which will eventually be included in farmOS: http://drupal.org/project/ledger
[16:42:35]<mstenta>so it's all part of the master plan ;-)
[16:42:41]<kadaan>I saw that :)
[16:42:47]<kadaan>What about Sales?
[16:42:49]<mstenta>but it is one step at a time
[16:42:55]<kadaan>Is there a way to input that right now?
[16:42:55]<mstenta>that would be covered in Ledger as well
[16:43:00]<kadaan>k
[16:43:01]<mstenta>no, not right now
[16:43:34]<mstenta>the primary use for farmOS right now is "record keeping"... but not "book keeping" yet
[16:43:44]<mstenta>that's what i've been calling it anyway
[16:43:59]<kadaan>Once those two are in place most all of the data that needs to be there for profit management will be available.
[16:44:43]<kadaan>I wonder: if farmOS is not considered the "source of truth" for financial info, will it simplify the problem?
[16:45:33]<mstenta>yea exactly
[16:45:39]<mstenta>and then we can start connecting all the dots
[16:45:58]<mstenta>hmm, not sure what you mean...
[16:47:18]<kadaan>If farmOS is the "source of truth" much attention needs to be paid to ensuring that the data is very granular, 100% accurate, etc.
[16:47:47]<kadaan>Whereas, if it is not, then high level information might accomplish 80% of the goals.
[16:48:01]<mstenta>kadaan: gotcha... well i am trying to ensure that everything CAN be very granular
[16:48:26]<kadaan>For instance, the "sales" info that is record in VeggieCompass is: Crop,Unit Type,Price,Venue,Quantity. Where Venue is: CSA, Market, Wholesale, Stand.
[16:49:19]<kadaan>That data isn't too granular, and doesn't require double entry bookkeeping to be immediately useful.
[16:49:47]<mstenta>gotcha
[16:50:03]<mstenta>yea my thought is that the double-entry aspect of Ledger will be sort of "hidden" in farmOS
[16:50:20]<kadaan>When more granular data is available and double entry bookkeeping is in place, then accuracy can be "ensured" and flexibility increased.
[16:50:22]<mstenta>ie: there will be some logic to fill in the other side of the transaction automatically
[16:50:28]<kadaan>Right.
[16:51:56]<kadaan>Any idea how big a "big" mysql database is for farmOS?
[16:52:43]<kadaan>Time tracking is on your list as well, right?
[16:53:24]<mstenta>yup, time tracking and task assignment (so you can assign tasks to different people, and have different todo lists for each)
[16:54:20]<mstenta>do you mean database file size?
[16:54:25]<kadaan>Yup
[16:54:40]<kadaan>I would love to be able to just pop into the webapp on my phone and enter the amount of time I spent moving the goats.
[16:55:03]<kadaan>Seems like that one shouldn't be too hard to implement.
[16:55:10]<mstenta>yea definitely
[16:55:16]<mstenta>it would essentially just be a new field on log entities
[16:55:21]<mstenta>for storing time spent
[16:55:33]<mstenta>and maybe also a nice "punch in/out" button via javascript on top of that
[16:56:37]<kadaan>What are your thoughts on "reporting"
[16:57:01]<kadaan>Especially around being able to extract insight from all the collected data.
[16:57:01]<mstenta>i see "reporting" as essentially summaries of logs for different purposes
[16:57:27]<mstenta>so my assumption is that various reports will start to take shape as necessary
[16:57:31]<mstenta>using the data stored in the logs
[16:57:58]<kadaan>For example, I imagine if all this data was in Elasticsearch, I could use Kibana to slice and dice the events to get aggregates.
[17:00:16]<mstenta>brb
[17:00:37]<kadaan>np
[17:03:53]<mstenta>kadaan: yea absolutely... especially more of the structured data
[17:04:13]<mstenta>ie timeseries data collected by the farm_sensor module
[17:05:38]<kadaan>Yup.
[17:05:48]<kadaan>But even time tracking data would be good.
[17:06:24]<kadaan>For bigger farms, being able to easily create a chart with time spent grouped by task and worker.
[17:06:34]<mstenta>yea definitely
[17:07:21]<kadaan>Is there anything in Drupal-land which is a good fit for this? Building a super flexible reporting UI can be difficuly.
[17:07:56]<mstenta>i think reports will probably be very case-by-case dependent
[17:08:05]<mstenta>but there are some useful building blocks like Views
[17:08:14]<mstenta>and Panels
[17:08:20]<mstenta>those aren't for reporting specifically
[17:09:52]<kadaan>Just saw EasyChart.
[17:09:55]<kadaan>What about that?
[17:10:33]<mstenta>yea potentially
[17:10:53]<mstenta>i've been exploring graphing libraries for inclusion
[17:11:12]<mstenta>it would be good to find one that can be used for everything in farmOS
[17:11:27]<mstenta>D3.js is one i'm considerring
[17:11:35]<mstenta>there is also this module: http://drupal.org/project/visualization
[17:11:37]<kadaan>d3 is super powerful
[17:12:04]<mstenta>which is sort of a generalized visualization module that you can use to connect other graphing libraries into Drupal
[17:12:24]<kadaan>That looks pretty nice
[17:13:18]<mstenta>i think it has a Drupal 8 version available too
[17:13:57]<mstenta>ultimately, i think the decision will largely be based on maintainability into the future
[17:14:21]<mstenta>so modules/libraries that have a good active community are probably our best bet
[17:14:44]<kadaan>That seems to be the hard part about drupal.
[17:14:47]<kadaan>So many modules.
[17:14:55]<kadaan>Not all maintained.
[17:15:05]<mstenta>yea, there are certainly some dead ones
[17:15:14]<mstenta>but the good ones are the ones that last :-)
[17:15:32]<mstenta>definitely requires some judgement to decide though
[17:16:02]<mstenta>we would just want to try to avoid the potential headache of having to change to a different library in the future if we find that the one we are using doesn't meet our needs
[17:16:20]<mstenta>although the same could be said about most of programming :-)
[17:18:49]<kadaan>Too true.
[17:19:17]<kadaan>I gotta get back to work. I'll look at getting farmOS running in docker and play around with an issue or two.
[17:19:41]<kadaan>I think I might try to tackle the one about changing the autocomplete entry fields to drop downs.
[17:20:14]<kadaan>Is that still desired?
[17:20:58]<mstenta>Awesome! it was great chatting!
[17:21:13]<mstenta>oh yea! definitely!
[17:21:27]<kadaan>What about backwards compatiblity when making that change?
[17:21:40]<mstenta>do you have the link to that issue handy? looking...
[17:22:15]<mstenta>if i remember correctly, the idea was to make them use the Entity Reference View Widget instead of the autocomplete...
[17:22:22]<mstenta>similar to the way the asset reference fields work
[17:22:41]<mstenta>backwards compatability won't be an issue for it, because it's just a change to the field widget that is used
[17:23:01]<mstenta>the field itself (and therefore the data that it stores) will stay the same
[17:23:34]<kadaan>Just saw that one.
[17:23:37]<mstenta>(that's one of the nice things about the Drupal Field API module - you can swap out the "widget" used for fields without touching the underlying data)
[17:23:52]<kadaan>I thought I saw one last night that was a request to make the fields all dropdown
[17:24:42]<kadaan>And you (I thought) had commented that it would probably be better to enforce creation before selection.
[17:24:53]<mstenta>oh maybe i'm thinking of something different...
[17:25:17]<mstenta>not sure that one rings a bell...
[17:25:33]<kadaan>Maybe it was a dream...
[17:26:46]<mstenta>haha no i believe you... just can't think off the top of my head which one it is :-)
[17:26:58]<mstenta>if you find the link again feel free to ping me on here
[17:27:00]<mstenta>i'm curious now
[17:27:21]<kadaan>It was in this one: https://www.drupal.org/node/2755237
[17:27:42]<kadaan>Or, maybe not.
[17:27:45]<kadaan>Grrr
[17:28:16]<mstenta>this is the one i was thinking of: https://www.drupal.org/node/2758907
[17:29:47]<mstenta>oh this one! https://www.drupal.org/node/2784901
[17:29:48]<mstenta>right ?
[17:30:03]<mstenta>originally posted in github: https://github.com/farmOS/farm_area/issues/2
[17:32:37]<kadaan>Yes! Nice find!!!
[17:32:46]<mstenta>cool
[17:33:03]<kadaan>So does it conflict with https://www.drupal.org/node/2758907
[17:33:09]<mstenta>yea so actually, those two issues (https://www.drupal.org/node/2784901 and https://www.drupal.org/node/2758907) are essentially the same... we should mark one as duplicate of the other
[17:33:42]<mstenta>i guess i forgot about the first one when i made the second
[17:33:48]<kadaan>And which is the correct way to solve?
[17:33:57]<kadaan>Entity Reference View Wdget?
[17:34:00]<mstenta>good question :-)
[17:34:20]<mstenta>the easier one is the dropdown
[17:34:29]<mstenta>and maybe we should just do that as a first step...
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[17:35:17]<mstenta>ultimately, there are some big changes that might happen with Areas in the future - at which point we will need to re-asses
[17:35:26]<mstenta>they will probably become a type of asset
[17:35:38]<mstenta>i'll comment on those issues with these thoughts
[17:35:54]<mstenta>if you want to try your hand at the dropdown one, that would be great!
[17:36:16]<mstenta>it will definitely get your feet wet with drupal... :-)
[17:36:31]<mstenta>and i'd be happy to talk you through some of it in IRC if you want
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[18:07:46]<kadaan>That would be great
[18:07:52]<kadaan>I'll take that one on
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[18:08:30]* kadaan_ is now known as kadaan
[18:09:50]<kadaan>What times are good for you for IRC? I'm on the west coast.
[18:13:22]<mstenta>kadaan: i'm on the east coast
[18:13:34]<mstenta>kadaan: i'm generally on during the day
[18:13:42]<mstenta>more of a morning person than a night person
[18:14:18]<mstenta>but also... if you don't see me for a while i might be holding a baby
[18:14:23]<kadaan>tell mstenta Well, I'm up by 6am, so most days I could do something early.
[18:14:50]<kadaan>Gah. My IRC skills are weak
[18:15:28]<kadaan>Then I'll hit you up for a IRC walkthru sooner than later.
[18:15:53]<mstenta>kadaan: ok sounds good!
[18:16:21]<mstenta>kadaan: well it was great chatting! i'm gonna sign off for today
[18:16:29]<mstenta>have a nice evening!
[18:16:37]<kadaan>Later
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[18:38:24]<mstenta>kadaan: FYI i updated those two issues... made this one the canonical: https://www.drupal.org/node/2784901
[18:40:43]<kadaan>Thanks!
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