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| [03:32:38] | <ludwa6> | Nice surpise on farmOS (@farmier) to see the Plans module added, with Grazing template added; thanks for that, @mstenta ! |
| [07:12:51] | <mstenta[m]> | You're welcome @ludwa6 :-) |
| [07:13:36] | <ludwa6> | i have a Q or few, if you have a few minutes to discuss. ? |
| [07:15:25] | <ludwa6> | Was surprised to see that the plan Grazing form pays no attention to Area. Geolocation of paddocks is a key issue in Holistic Planned Grazing, or ordinary rotational grazing. Am i missing something, or is that how it is? |
| [07:16:39] | <mstenta[m]> | I'm making breakfast for kids at the moment - want to start a forum post with questions? Happy to answer them later |
| [07:17:02] | <ludwa6> | sure thing, mate: what forum? or else i’ll just post to general. |
| [07:17:14] | <mstenta[m]> | Grazing plans do use calculated area of paddocks |
| [07:17:39] | <mstenta[m]> | Sure the "using farmOS" forum is best |
| [07:17:50] | <ludwa6> | ok, then i’m clearly missing something. will do as you say. |
| [07:31:54] | <mstenta[m]> | Did you select the paddocks to be part of the plan? |
| [07:32:31] | <mstenta[m]> | The grazing module works pretty well but it has some strict requirements for how data is entered right now |
| [07:32:39] | <mstenta[m]> | Need to have "paddock" areas |
| [07:32:46] | <mstenta[m]> | That are mapped |
| [07:32:55] | <mstenta[m]> | And you need to have groups of animals |
| [07:33:28] | <mstenta[m]> | And the animals need to have a type selected (which is different/similar to species/breed) |
| [07:33:59] | <mstenta[m]> | And the animals need weight measurement |
| [07:35:19] | <mstenta[m]> | It's a big module, was sponsored by the Globetrotter Foundation |
| [07:35:56] | <mstenta[m]> | Stephen Woodbridge did most of the development |
| [07:38:46] | <mstenta[m]> | But yea let's talk on forum. Easier to go into detail :-) |
| [10:33:03] | <ludwa6> | I am looking at “Add Grazing Plan” right now, @mstenta, and i can see no field that corresponds to the Area that i have defined as a paddock. |
| [10:42:12] | <mstenta[m]> | ludwa6: Fill out that form first, with just the basic info, and then you'll see more options |
| [10:42:27] | <ludwa6> | ah, ok. on it now. |
| [10:42:30] | <mstenta[m]> | The first step is to create a "Plan" entity in the system with a title, date range etc |
| [10:42:38] | <ludwa6> | gotcha |
| [10:42:56] | <mstenta[m]> | And then it will have tabs on the top that you step through to work through the planning process |
| [10:43:22] | <mstenta[m]> | So it's a bit more powerful than other record types like assets and logs that only have the Edit tab |
| [10:43:50] | <mstenta[m]> | I saw your forum post - thanks for starting that! I will follow up with more information there - I think I have some documentation I can add too |
| [10:50:11] | <ludwa6> | whoa -the waters of this feature are *much* deeper than they appear at first glance, i now see. And yes, i think you are right; this feature warrants some documentation! |
| [10:51:56] | <mstenta[m]> | Haha yes! |
| [10:52:23] | <mstenta[m]> | Agreed - and actually some documentation was written when the initial phase of development was completed at the end of 2017 - but it hasn't made it up to farmOS.org yet |
| [10:52:54] | <ludwa6> | i defined one test paddock, like any other area, only typed as a paddock, that’s easy… But now i will have to register each individual animal with particulars specified, for this to work right. That’s more information than i am having to put on the HGP worksheets that i use to manage. |
| [10:52:57] | <mstenta[m]> | I will try to dig it up and post it on the forum, and then make a page on farmOS.org |
| [10:53:18] | <ludwa6> | that would be most helpful, Mike - thanks. |
| [10:53:31] | <mstenta[m]> | > But now i will have to register each individual animal with particulars specified |
| [10:53:32] | <mstenta[m]> | What do you mean by this? |
| [10:54:32] | <ludwa6> | Well: in even a small & simple flock of sheep like mine, there are Ewes, a Ram and some lambs -some F (what we want to keep) and some M (that are for sale or processing). |
| [10:55:11] | <ludwa6> | And the app calls for specification of a date-range for each animals lifecycle. |
| [10:56:08] | <ludwa6> | Ewes are really one kind of animal, because they are kepy on on for years, but it’s a different story for the males, obviously. |
| [10:57:23] | <ludwa6> | Clearly one has to track all this info -and we do- but i’ve not entered all that in farmOS, because there would be no point, until i start managing lifecycles in this tool. |
| [10:57:40] | <mstenta[m]> | First question: will you be tracking individual records for each animal? Or would you rather just have one record with a head-count? |
| [10:58:09] | <ludwa6> | And i’m still just jerking around with it here in the back office, basically (see my comment in the Field Kit about state of our deploy) |
| [10:58:53] | <ludwa6> | A: Individual animal, if i can use the tool to manage lifecycles (am not clear about that yet); flock headcount otherwise. |
| [10:58:56] | <mstenta[m]> | ludwa6: Understandable - getting the full value out of this tool does require having data in place to draw from |
| [10:58:57] | <mstenta[m]> | But... |
| [10:59:07] | <mstenta[m]> | You can do some things without entering all the info |
| [10:59:41] | <ludwa6> | Yes? well… Then maybe that is the starting point. |
| [11:00:08] | <mstenta[m]> | So the first thing you should do is: create a Group asset for your herd |
| [11:00:25] | <mstenta[m]> | You can just start with one... but technically you can manage multiple herds in one plan |
| [11:00:28] | <ludwa6> | Otherwise i gotta go get animal tag numbers etc… But if i can manage movements of flock based on headcount, that would be the quick win i’m looking for right now. |
| [11:00:46] | <mstenta[m]> | Ok, so let's do a quick test plan to demonstrate... |
| [11:00:54] | <mstenta[m]> | Create one animal, and give it an inventory of 100 |
| [11:01:00] | <ludwa6> | k |
| [11:01:06] | <mstenta[m]> | Then create a new Group and put the animal in that group |
| [11:01:47] | <mstenta[m]> | (The group represents the herd, which is what the grazing module uses. It's a little redundant in this example because it will only have one animal asset in it, but you get the idea...) |
| [11:01:49] | <ludwa6> | i already created one called “Sheep herd,” but i guess i should ignore that for now. |
| [11:02:21] | <mstenta[m]> | up to you |
| [11:02:22] | <mstenta[m]> | you can use it |
| [11:03:19] | <mstenta[m]> | you'll need 2-3 paddocks as well |
| [11:03:40] | <ludwa6> | well… If i go to edit, i see just Name (Ilha de França x Merino Branco -they’re a cross), Description, and Relations. |
| [11:03:56] | <ludwa6> | I pull down Relations, and it sez <root> |
| [11:04:04] | <ludwa6> | Weight = 0 |
| [11:04:15] | <mstenta[m]> | ah yea... no sorry that's not the right place |
| [11:04:18] | <mstenta[m]> | i agree that's confusing |
| [11:04:38] | <mstenta[m]> | go to Assets > Animals |
| [11:04:46] | <ludwa6> | This needs a little quickstart guide :-) |
| [11:05:09] | <ludwa6> | i’m there. now i Add Animal ? |
| [11:05:14] | <mstenta[m]> | and click on the animal NAME (you clicked on the species/breed, which brings you to a taxonomy term, not the asset) |
| [11:05:31] | <mstenta[m]> | > This needs a little quickstart guide :-) |
| [11:05:32] | <mstenta[m]> | agreed! any volunteers? :-) |
| [11:05:43] | <mstenta[m]> | yes if you want to add a new animal for this test, go ahead |
| [11:05:56] | <ludwa6> | heh - IMCST (in My Copious Spare Time -i.e. don’t hold yer breath :--) |
| [11:06:23] | <ludwa6> | is that your suggested way? add an animal and give it a number of 100? |
| [11:06:24] | <mstenta[m]> | (FYI my 6 mo daughter is napping, so i will need to leave when she wakes) :-) |
| [11:06:26] | <mstenta[m]> | > heh - IMCST (in My Copious Spare Time -i.e. don’t hold yer breath :--) |
| [11:06:27] | <mstenta[m]> | i know how you feel ;-) |
| [11:06:33] | <ludwa6> | i mean 25, which is my animals |
| [11:06:46] | <mstenta[m]> | > is that your suggested way? add an animal and give it a number of 100? |
| [11:06:46] | <mstenta[m]> | yes, for this test lets do that |
| [11:06:53] | <ludwa6> | ok. |
| [11:07:25] | <ludwa6> | i’m on a new animal form. now what fields MUST i enter, to make this work? |
| [11:08:12] | <mstenta[m]> | ludwa6 and jgaehring - I think I also have a hunch as to why https://farmOS.app isn't working for ludwa6 |
| [11:08:42] | <ludwa6> | mstenta[m]: would love to hear it |
| [11:09:53] | <mstenta[m]> | > i’m on a new animal form. now what fields MUST i enter, to make this work? |
| [11:09:54] | <mstenta[m]> | for this full demo, these are the fields I want you to fill out: |
| [11:09:56] | <mstenta[m]> | - Name of the animal |
| [11:09:57] | <mstenta[m]> | - Species/breed |
| [11:10:34] | <mstenta[m]> | (those are the only two fields required to create a new animal generally speaking) |
| [11:10:41] | <mstenta[m]> | Under that you'll see a Grazing panel |
| [11:10:48] | <mstenta[m]> | with three fields: |
| [11:10:56] | <mstenta[m]> | - Animal type |
| [11:11:00] | <mstenta[m]> | - Planned arrival |
| [11:11:03] | <mstenta[m]> | - Planned departure |
| [11:11:21] | <ludwa6> | right -but such dates would apply only to an individual |
| [11:11:21] | <mstenta[m]> | Those fields aren't strictly required, but they are used by the grazing module to calculate recommended grazing days |
| [11:11:59] | <ludwa6> | wait: is that date range about animal lifecycle, or time in a particular paddock? |
| [11:12:07] | <mstenta[m]> | > right -but such dates would apply only to an individual |
| [11:12:08] | <mstenta[m]> | So this is going to be a decision for you as to how granular you want to get. If you want ultimate granularity, you need to track individual animals, with separate dates. |
| [11:12:16] | <mstenta[m]> | But this is just an estimated date |
| [11:12:37] | <mstenta[m]> | So it will just be used for the calculations... which can be more/less effective based on the data you give it |
| [11:12:50] | <mstenta[m]> | > wait: is that date range about animal lifecycle, or time in a particular paddock? |
| [11:12:50] | <mstenta[m]> | it's meant to be lifecycle |
| [11:13:01] | <mstenta[m]> | or when animal was purchased/sold |
| [11:13:37] | <mstenta[m]> | the point is: you CAN leave all those fields blank... and still use the grazing module... you just won't get any calculated recommendations and you'll have to enter dates by yourself |
| [11:14:06] | <mstenta[m]> | that's the other point i want to make: you CAN use the grazing module to create movements, but still do your calculations OUTSIDE of farmOS if you prefer |
| [11:14:55] | <ludwa6> | ok, if we forget the auto-calculated dates feature: then what i want to manage here for now is movements -planned and actual. |
| [11:15:04] | <ludwa6> | of the flock as a single entity. |
| [11:15:41] | <mstenta[m]> | ok great |
| [11:15:48] | <mstenta[m]> | so then leave all those fields blank |
| [11:15:51] | <mstenta[m]> | what you DO need is a Group |
| [11:15:52] | <mstenta[m]> | so scroll down a little |
| [11:15:56] | <mstenta[m]> | and open the Group panel |
| [11:16:05] | <mstenta[m]> | "Group membership" |
| [11:16:10] | <ludwa6> | i’m there |
| [11:16:25] | <ludwa6> | only group i have set thus far is vehicles |
| [11:16:26] | <mstenta[m]> | for the test, create a new group |
| [11:16:31] | <mstenta[m]> | "Test Herd" or something |
| [11:17:02] | <ludwa6> | ok, got that. that’s it, and save? |
| [11:17:20] | <mstenta[m]> | > only group i have set thus far is vehicles |
| [11:17:21] | <mstenta[m]> | (ok yea so FYI Groups can be used for lots of things, but the grazing module assumes that they are only used for Herds... sort of annoying but not an issue as long as you know to ignore other groups) |
| [11:17:27] | <mstenta[m]> | yup save! |
| [11:18:09] | <mstenta[m]> | after that, you'll need 2-3 paddocks |
| [11:18:17] | <ludwa6> | OK -but now under inventory, this Test Herd shows an Inventory of 1. |
| [11:18:33] | <mstenta[m]> | oh did you give it an inventory? i forgot to mention that one... |
| [11:18:38] | <ludwa6> | I never entered any mumber. where do i change that to 25? |
| [11:18:41] | <mstenta[m]> | you can click Edit and open the Inventory panel to change that |
| [11:19:21] | <ludwa6> | got it |
| [11:20:09] | <ludwa6> | so as numbers go up and down with births and deaths, sales and purchases, i adjust that number on the flock… |
| [11:20:28] | <mstenta[m]> | that's correct |
| [11:20:31] | <mstenta[m]> | inventory is tracked with logs |
| [11:20:32] | <ludwa6> | … but that would not manage a history. |
| [11:20:45] | <mstenta[m]> | so it will maintain a history of increments/decrements |
| [11:20:52] | <ludwa6> | ok. |
| [11:20:57] | <mstenta[m]> | the "Inventory" field in the animal edit page is just a shortcut - it will create a log whenever you change that |
| [11:22:27] | <ludwa6> | ah ok. well, i don’t wanna keep you here all day, with an infant soon to wake… But i’ve got enough to play around with, and if you could post those docs, that would sure help me to get a handle on this quicker. |
| [11:23:07] | <mstenta[m]> | i've probably got a few minutes :-) |
| [11:23:12] | <mstenta[m]> | i want to get you to the best part! |
| [11:23:36] | <mstenta[m]> | let's skip there real quick... don't worry about inventory or adding more paddocks (you have 1 right?) |
| [11:23:57] | <mstenta[m]> | open your plan, click on the Paddocks tab and select your paddock |
| [11:24:03] | <mstenta[m]> | then click on the Herds tab and add your herd |
| [11:24:26] | <mstenta[m]> | you'll probably see some warnings about calculations - this is because they don't have weights/animal types/arrival and departure dates... you can ignore them |
| [11:24:32] | <mstenta[m]> | then click on Herds > Rotations (a sub-tab of Herds) |
| [11:24:39] | <mstenta[m]> | THIS is where you can plan your movements |
| [11:24:47] | <mstenta[m]> | And this is the best part :-) |
| [11:25:27] | <ludwa6> | ACTION digging down into it |
| [11:26:12] | <mstenta[m]> | i'm having you skip a lot of the other steps (eg: defining paddock quality, recovery time, etc) - which are basically just for feeding the planning equations with info |
| [11:26:58] | <ludwa6> | amazing. dev who did this was obviously a Holistic Management practitioner |
| [11:28:49] | <mstenta[m]> | yea the history of it is actually pretty neat... it was a commissioned project 4 or 5 years ago, originally built as a simple PHP+JS app from scratch |
| [11:29:05] | <mstenta[m]> | designed by a web developer and a HM practitioner |
| [11:29:43] | <mstenta[m]> | and then in 2017, the group that commissioned it wanted to take it to the next level, and we basically rewrote it as a farmOS module |
| [11:29:58] | <mstenta[m]> | so that it could leverage all the other features that farmOS already had |
| [11:31:17] | <ludwa6> | ok, i have a group (Test Herd), it is assigned to a Paddock (paddock NS-01), whose area is calculated... |
| [11:31:38] | <ludwa6> | … But… now what? |
| [11:32:11] | <mstenta[m]> | did you go to the Herds tab and add the herd to the plan? |
| [11:32:49] | <mstenta[m]> | (the herd doesn't need to be assigned to a paddock to start... that's what you'll do in the plan) |
| [11:32:53] | <mstenta[m]> | (but it doesn't hurt) |
| [11:33:07] | <ludwa6> | now i have added the Herd to the Plan |
| [11:33:21] | <mstenta[m]> | ok, not click on the Herds > Rotations tab |
| [11:33:24] | <mstenta[m]> | (sub tab under Herds) |
| [11:33:25] | <mstenta[m]> | now* |
| [11:34:47] | <ludwa6> | warning -i can ignore? |
| [11:34:48] | <ludwa6> | Some required data is missing from the animals in this plan. This may adversely affect calculations. Please see the errors below and add any data that may be missing. Fields that are required will be highlighted in the form below, along with any values that are calculated from those fields. |
| [11:34:49] | <ludwa6> | 1 animal(s) do not have an animal type. |
| [11:34:50] | <ludwa6> | 1 animal(s) are missing weight measurements. |
| [11:35:23] | <mstenta[m]> | yes that's correct - you can ignore those |
| [11:35:35] | <mstenta[m]> | > you'll probably see some warnings about calculations - this is because they don't have weights/animal types/arrival and departure dates... you can ignore them |
| [11:35:45] | <ludwa6> | ok i am in rotations |
| [11:36:30] | <mstenta[m]> | ok, so open the "Add a paddock rotation" panel, select your herd, and the paddock, and click Save |
| [11:36:38] | <mstenta[m]> | (or rather "Add rotation") |
| [11:37:07] | <mstenta[m]> | the "Default grazing days" won't change anything because you aren't going to be using the module calculations |
| [11:37:46] | <mstenta[m]> | When you do this, you will notice that it has a duration of 0 |
| [11:37:54] | <mstenta[m]> | This is because no calculations were performed |
| [11:38:02] | <mstenta[m]> | So you will adjust this yourself manually - set it to 10 for example |
| [11:38:14] | <ludwa6> | right: but i will enter the number of grazing days planned, and that’s what i manage, yes? |
| [11:38:28] | <mstenta[m]> | yes |
| [11:38:51] | <ludwa6> | then for each successive paddock thru which i plan to move, i add another rotation and number of Grazing Days? |
| [11:38:59] | <ludwa6> | or is the whole plan called a Rotation? |
| [11:39:08] | <mstenta[m]> | and after you change things on the page, go to the bottom and open "Recalculate all rotations" and click "Recalculate" - that is what will actually save your changes (we should probably reword that to make it more clear) |
| [11:39:26] | <mstenta[m]> | yes that's correct - you add a "rotation" for each paddock |
| [11:39:31] | <mstenta[m]> | we have talked about changing that to simply "movement" |
| [11:39:34] | <ludwa6> | ok |
| [11:39:34] | <mstenta[m]> | rather than "rotation" |
| [11:40:00] | <ludwa6> | yeah, since you have movements defined aa a first class datatype, it makes more sense |
| [11:40:33] | <mstenta[m]> | oh - so one other piece of advice: make sure the plan itself has a date range |
| [11:40:34] | <mstenta[m]> | that is under the Settings tab |
| [11:41:16] | <mstenta[m]> | make sure it is a few months, so you can see the months listed at the top of the rotations page |
| [11:41:23] | <ludwa6> | ok. what i need to understand is: does every change in such parameter get logged, so we have a history? |
| [11:41:38] | <mstenta[m]> | AH baby is waking up I think... i have to go! but hopefully you get the idea and can play around from here! |
| [11:41:38] | <mstenta[m]> | good luck! |
| [11:41:51] | <ludwa6> | thanks man; you too :-) |
| [11:42:23] | <mstenta[m]> | > ok. what i need to understand is: does every change in such parameter get logged, so we have a history? |
| [11:42:24] | <mstenta[m]> | each "rotation" is linked to a movement log, which is either done or not done |
| [11:42:27] | <mstenta[m]> | once a movement is marked done, it can't be changed in the rotations tab anymore |
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| [13:04:06] | <jgaehring[m]> | > I think I also have a hunch as to why https://farmOS.app isn't working |
| [13:04:07] | <jgaehring[m]> | mstenta , catching up on the convo, did you address this? |
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| [13:16:11] | <mstenta[m]> | Not yet had to step away |
| [13:16:41] | <mstenta[m]> | If you are able, try this: open a farmOS instance and log in |
| [13:17:06] | <mstenta[m]> | Then go to farmOS.app and try to log in there too |
| [13:17:18] | <mstenta[m]> | I think because the cookie is already set the login doesn't work |
| [13:17:52] | <mstenta[m]> | Which makes sense because posting to the login url would return a different response |
| [13:31:36] | <jgaehring[m]> | hmm, ok lemme try |
| [13:32:36] | <mstenta[m]> | I don't know if that's what happened for Walt but maybe |
| [13:32:45] | <mstenta[m]> | He was signed in to farmOS already I thin |
| [13:32:54] | <mstenta[m]> | Think |
| [13:34:21] | <jgaehring[m]> | hm, I don't get any conflict |
| [13:34:44] | <jgaehring[m]> | logs in fine to both |
| [13:35:10] | <mstenta[m]> | Oh hmm |
| [13:35:16] | <mstenta[m]> | I'll try again |
| [13:35:23] | <mstenta[m]> | Maybe I did something weird |
| [13:43:26] | <jgaehring[m]> | it's a good guess |
| [13:53:02] | <mstenta[m]> | Yea do we handle that case explicitly in the app? I forget |
| [13:53:20] | <mstenta[m]> | Seems like it *shouldn't* work haha |
| [13:53:25] | <mstenta[m]> | But I forget maybe we already addressed that |
| [13:57:32] | <mstenta[m]> | Oh maybe it's the new cookie blocking Firefox extension I have lol |
| [13:57:49] | <mstenta[m]> | Will do some more testing when I'm at my laptop... :-) |
| [14:16:50] | <jgaehring[m]> | haha, yea, I wondered about cookie blockers |
| [14:17:29] | <jgaehring[m]> | > Yea do we handle that case explicitly in the app? I forget |
| [14:17:30] | <jgaehring[m]> | we don't, I've never been able to reproduce the error, though I do remember you mentioning something like it before |
| [14:18:41] | <jgaehring[m]> | https://github.com/farmOS/farmOS-client/issues/133 |
| [14:19:42] | <mstenta[m]> | Ah cool! |
| [14:19:46] | <mstenta[m]> | Thanks forgot about that |
| [14:19:57] | <mstenta[m]> | I will follow up and see if I can reproduce too |
| [14:20:00] | <jgaehring[m]> | are you able to reproduce it now? |
| [14:20:04] | <jgaehring[m]> | oh great |
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